a reader of PBCS and an apparently silent follower of this forum (summarised) wrote:What's the difference/relationship between your Forcing-T&E, your Forcing-braids and the forcing-chains of Sudoku Explainer?
(Subsidiarily, how do "tracks" fit in the landscape?)
denis_berthier wrote:About the subsidiary question: if tracks and anti-tracks are defined as sets, as Robert persists to do, they are no more than anti-T&E and T&E, respectively; and conjugated tracks are no more than Forcing-T&E.
However, the way Robert uses (anti-)tracks in practice is always as ordered sets, not developed to the full extent of a T&E procedure; which makes them move slightly towards the controlled side of the scale of control. However, I'm not aware of any publication of Robert about controlling the size of his tracks, so I wouldn't venture too much on this ground. He is welcome to state his view about it.
Mauriès Robert wrote: I understood (not everything yet) the "simplest first" principle that underlies your whole theory and its fixed-length patterns.
Mauriès Robert wrote:But another aspect is important to me, and that is the choice of target. Again, it is not a question of manually trying all the candidates to find out which ones can be targets.
Since the number of pairs is smaller, ...
Mauriès Robert wrote:it is easier from a pair to find a target by constructing E and the antitrace P'(E) that will eliminate a target that is necessarily a candidate (or set of candidates) that sees both E and a candidate of P'(E).
This is the way I proceed in all the examples I have dealt with in this forum.
Mauriès Robert wrote: I understand that this is called T&E because it is impossible to find E without trying, at least without analyzing the puzzle to mentally see that the choice of E is the right one. It is then a thoughtful T&E, a bit like in chess game one conceives a movement of the pieces after having analyzed the possibilities mentally.
Mauriès Robert wrote: [...] which makes me think about a resolution strategy based on this unique pseudo-model.
Mauriès Robert wrote:Indeed, I wasn't specific enough when I wrote that the number of pairs was lower. Indeed, it is not a question of examining all the possible partitions of the entities, but those that are likely to generate tracks or anti-tracks, what I would call "exploitable pairs". [...]These pairs are less numerous than the puzzle candidates, which are all likely to be targets.
Mauriès Robert wrote:I am not saying that the resolution I am presenting is the one that I found first, it is an evidence that I have optimized it because it is the only one that is of interest.
denis_berthier wrote:Once again, candidates are not the starting point for finding whips/braids. The starting point is a partial-whip[1] or a partial g-whip[1] and both are mere bivalue-cells (in rc, rn, cn or bn space) or alignments (i.e. g-bivalue-cells).
As a result, the number of starting "points" for whips.. is less than what you describe here, as you add all possible Subsets in the landscape of "exploitable pairs".
denis_berthier wrote:Needless to say that in addition to this additional complication at the very start, for each pair of conjugated tracks, you have to develop two T&E procedures in parallel and to keep comparing their results. I can't see any real advantage for a human solver.
Mauriès Robert wrote:Having said that, show me on a concrete example how you solve a puzzle "by hand" without Sudorules, certainly I would understand better how you find the targets.
denis_berthier wrote:Once again, you fail to understand the main point. It's not about finding the targets; it's about starting a chain pattern. The potential targets are a consequence of this starting partial-whip[1] or partial--whip[1] pattern - a pattern as easy to find as alignments or bivalue cells.
And there's no difference with how you find them, be they mere tracks, anti-tracks, or conjugated tracks.
It seems what you fail to understand is that my formal definitions start from the target, but that doesn't imply the patterns have to be found by first choosing a target.
denis_berthier wrote:Hi Robert,
You were talking about how to start a whip. You failed to show that it was harder than to start a conjugated tracks. You're now changing the topic. So, what's your point?
Mauriès Robert wrote:denis_berthier wrote:Hi Robert,
You were talking about how to start a whip. You failed to show that it was harder than to start a conjugated tracks. You're now changing the topic. So, what's your point?
My last comment was a response to your comment that I forgot to quote (I corrected) and not the creation of another topic.
denis_berthier wrote:Sorry, but I still can't see how your new remarks are in any way related to how to start a whip and how this is different from starting a conjugate pair of tracks
Mauriès Robert wrote:denis_berthier wrote:Sorry, but I still can't see how your new remarks are in any way related to how to start a whip and how this is different from starting a conjugate pair of tracks
Reflection made, you are right there is no difference in the way to start a whip or an antitrack which have vocation to eliminate a target since in one case as in the other the target is necessarily a candidate who sees the candidate of left of V1.
Concerning the subject forcing-T&E I have nothing to add for the moment.
denis_berthier wrote:But the discussion was not between whips and antitracks; it was between a whip and a pair of conjugated tracks. You keep repeating that the latter have an easier to find starting point. I've shown that this claim is false.
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